How central do you think signs and wonders are in youth ministry?
CW I think young people want to see power. They want to see God move. They want to see if there is something different that is going to attract me, but also keep me. Because they are encountering power in different ways already. And it’s our responsibility as leaders, as the Church, to give them all the sides of Jesus. I love the signs and wonders – I think they are very important – but we need the Word with the Spirit. Because signs don’t save people, and signs don’t keep people. It’s discipleship that actually keeps people connected to Jesus, and connected to the Church. Signs don’t do that. They might show people sides of God they wouldn’t otherwise know, but it is discipleship that we actually have to infiltrate young people with. We need a balance between the Word and the Spirit. Nothing’s easy – this isn’t just about going from sign to sign to sign. There is a high cost of following Jesus, and they need to see that.
Over the past 20 years or so, during your time in ministry, do you think we have gone too far in the direction of spirit over word?
CW I do. I mean, I love seeing miracles! But things change, seasons change. And then when people don’t see signs, they get discouraged, and they fall away. So yes to power evangelism, yes to healing, yes to deliverance – but it’s the discipleship that keeps people grounded : knowing Jesus through the hard stuff as well as the miracles. And the Holy Spirit isn’t just for miracles, it’s there to empower us through the suffering, and that’s what we need to teach a bit more. Yes, I do think we have got way too signs focused.
What would you say to a youth worker who has never experienced signs and wonders in their youth group?
CW I would say that, as a leader, you are responsible. As a leader you need to find someone who is grounded, someone who moves in the gifts of the Spirit. Glean from then, learn from them, watch them. You yourself do it. If you want to see the kids do it, you have to do it, you need to be willing to risk, and then they will follow your example. If you’re just beginning, then you need to feed yourself with something that is really tried and tested over the years, something you’re seeing God use – and that is biblically grounded. That is so important these days, as there is a lot of stuff around that is extra-biblical, that doesn’t really help the Church.
What about for those who have stepped out in faith and ‘failed’, so to speak?
CW It’s hard. For every person I have seen getting radically healed, there are a hundred who haven’t been healed. It’s just part of it. We’re not in heaven yet – we’re in the inbetween time. We are in battle all of the time. We see people get hurt in battle, we see people get healed in battle - it’s just part of it. So every time someone doesn’t get healed, I don’t quit. You just have to keep going. Because our job is to pray, it’s God’s job to heal. We pray, he heals. We don’t pray for signs and wonders, we pray for Jesus – and whatever Jesus wants to do he does. Again it’s about not being too signs focused, because we are not called to follow signs, we are called to be disciples. And signs follow us, we don’t follow signs. That way I can see that healing might come in a different way for someone. And I guarantee this: if you pray healing for somebody, the emotional healing of that can be even more powerful than the physical healing. Just the fact that you have taken the time to pray for them, that’s another form of healing. So is it productive? Absolutely. You can’t discount it just because they might have still died. That’s not up to us, that’s up to God. That’s not even up to our faith. Faith is just a mustard seed – very little – just trying it at all. At all. And you just never know. I mean, I’ve seen it so many times where God heals somebody where I’m like, really? You did it? And then other times where I’ve thought for sure God is going to heal them because they are amazing. But no, they went to be with the Lord. Healing is not a formula, it will never be a formula. Because the Church takes that stuff and tends to package it and sell it. And Jesus wouldn’t do that. So just keep doing it. Don’t give up. Don’t pray because of what you see, pray because that is what Jesus asked you to do.
Jesus said that we would do greater things than even he did. What do you think that means today?
CW I think we haven’t even begun to see those things. I don’t think the world is waiting for the next sign and wonder. The world is waiting for us to love. That’s what the Bible says: the world will know us by our love. And when we love, God is there. And when he is there, things happen. So that’s how I think this is going to play out. The greater thing is love. The highest risk in the Kingdom is to love. Especially when people don’t love you back. I can pray for a sick person, but to love somebody and know that they may not love me back, or they may reject me – now that’s risk. That’s what we are called to as a Church. And when the Church loves, with no expectation of anything in return, that will get the world’s attention. I also think that we don’t even know what the greater things are. God doesn’t think like us. Just think about what’s been invented in the past ten years. It shows that we have not even begun to see what the greater things are. It could be something that we can’t even imagine. Who knows what God could do. He always does things differently.
